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Post by cjm on Sept 16, 2017 8:12:40 GMT
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Post by Trog on Sept 18, 2017 8:40:47 GMT
2 snippets provide the complete backdrop for the entire thing: The last one is particularly obnoxious. How will access to common land negate his (red herring) problems, rather than to make them much worse? (See inter alia, Garrett Hardin's Tragedy of the commons).
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Post by cjm on Sept 18, 2017 11:45:11 GMT
2 snippets provide the complete backdrop for the entire thing: Soil under cultivation generally shows a decline in fertility over time. The exact number of crops remaining is perhaps a thumb suck. A brief look at Mr Google suggests that the decline of nutrients and soil erosion are to blame. Nutrient replacement etc is advocated as remedy. I am doubtful whether that covers the entire spectrum as soil bacteria, organisms and changes in soil structure are also involved. Remedial action seems more complicated regarding these. A prolonged rest with a suitable ground cover is perhaps the only solution.
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Post by Trog on Sept 18, 2017 13:31:17 GMT
Soil under cultivation generally shows a decline in fertility over time. The exact number of crops remaining is perhaps a thumb suck. A brief look at Mr Google suggests that the decline of nutrients and soil erosion are to blame. Nutrient replacement etc is advocated as remedy. I am doubtful whether that covers the entire spectrum as soil bacteria, organisms and changes in soil structure are also involved. Remedial action seems more complicated regarding these. A prolonged rest with a suitable ground cover is perhaps the only solution. Maybe it's the residual scientist in me, but I'm convinced that proper care will maintain, and probably even improve, soil quality. As far as I know (been taught this in Grade III geography) one of the first things to manage is routine water erosion. I'm sure that with proper geometry and retention mechanisms, surface runoff can be limited to almost zero. That also means that (all) nutrients will remain in place - the only way for them is to go down, rather than sideways. This will also mean that huge amounts of nitrogen and sulphur don't get washed into rivers, streams, dams and lakes where it causes additional problems. As far as micronutrients are concerned, replacing them is no more difficult than to replace macronutrients. You just have to actually do it, that's all. Once topsoil is retained (instead of being washed away) the soil organisms and microorganisms will look after themselves. It's been doing so for a few billion years, and it's not going to stop doing so now. It's not, after all, a hostile environment - quite the opposite, in fact. However, all of this implies intelligence and proper planning and management. It is a riddle to me how Prof. Patel imagines this to emerge from a return to the days when people had access to common land. (Mind you, even that is a myth: Where and when did people have access to common land? Can Prof. Patel elucidate with some well documented examples?)
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Post by cjm on Sept 18, 2017 18:07:33 GMT
Maybe it's the residual scientist in me, but I'm convinced that proper care will maintain, and probably even improve, soil quality. As far as I know (been taught this in Grade III geography) one of the first things to manage is routine water erosion. I'm sure that with proper geometry and retention mechanisms, surface runoff can be limited to almost zero. That also means that (all) nutrients will remain in place - the only way for them is to go down, rather than sideways. This will also mean that huge amounts of nitrogen and sulphur don't get washed into rivers, streams, dams and lakes where it causes additional problems. As far as micronutrients are concerned, replacing them is no more difficult than to replace macronutrients. You just have to actually do it, that's all. Once topsoil is retained (instead of being washed away) the soil organisms and microorganisms will look after themselves. It's been doing so for a few billion years, and it's not going to stop doing so now. It's not, after all, a hostile environment - quite the opposite, in fact. However, all of this implies intelligence and proper planning and management. It is a riddle to me how Prof. Patel imagines this to emerge from a return to the days when people had access to common land. (Mind you, even that is a myth: Where and when did people have access to common land? Can Prof. Patel elucidate with some well documented examples?) Perhaps with a much smaller population the common land idea can work. Smacks of communal land ownership or communism to me - both which are hardly exemplary. I seem to recall that in England social upheaval ensued with the erection of fences. That is perhaps the parable here. One also has the kibbutz system which perhaps can be regarded as a communal land system. I fear that my nature is not amenable to any such system. If that is the future of agriculture, they will have to cope without me! I can imagine that it might be possible to maintain/increase land fertility, but any agricultural intervention (weeding, cultivation, seeding, monoculture, irrigation) has spin-offs. In many (if not most) cases the damage has been done already and one is faced with low fertility soil. Starting from a virgin soil point of view is already for the most part a theoretical exercise. The inorganic fertilisers cause problems of their own. Sometimes the pH is changed, apart from other side effects. The pollution caused by fertilisers is another issue (which you note). Irrigation schemes in arid areas tend to increase salination of the water. Soil structure is affected by most activities - including weeding.This is perhaps one of the most difficult things to repair. Phosphate moves very slowly in soil and replenishing it effectively, involves some form of ploughing. Sprays often have effects outside their immediate targets, negatively impacting on insects, plants and other animals. My impression is that the best agricultural system is one where one interferes as little as possible with the natural processes (assuming that there are still such natural processes on earth). I am not sure how one will replace the bacteria - particularly as information about them and other organisms is still limited. The whole thing is like a spider's web - touch any part and the entire web reverberates.
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Post by cjm on Sept 20, 2017 6:22:51 GMT
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