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Post by Trog on Jan 22, 2016 8:20:03 GMT
I've not altogether given up hope of writing a bestseller, and so to become fabulously rich. I seem to have a problem coming up with a fascinating, original story, though, and for quite a while now I've been looking at psychopathic serial (or potentially so) killers for assistance. I mean, Truman Capote cemented his fame with 'In Cold Blood', and left a field remaining largely unexplored.
I find several things about psychopathic killers fascinating.
The most absurd feature of all about psychopathy is that something must surely be seriously broken in their brains. Most murderers are of subnormal intelligence, of course, but some serial killers are not, and can even have astonishingly high IQs:
Nathan Leopold – 210 Albert De Salvo - 170 Richard Loeb – 168 Ted Kaczynski – 167 Rodney Alcala - 160 Charlene Williams – 160 Caroll Edward Cole - 152 Andrew Cunanan – 147 Edmund Kemper - 145 Jeffrey Dahmer – 145
(I do suspect some of these are inflated, e.g. I suspect the IQ of Nathan Leopold and some others to be estimates rather than actual measurements, and maybe skewed through some element of romanticism. But many are bona fide test results.)
How can it happen that someone with that level of presumed intelligence can utterly fail to grasp a fairly rudimentary causal sequence? i.e. Commit a crime, Get caught. Get prosecuted. Get punished?
Because what I’ve read about these people is that:
1. They understand what a crime is, and they understand that what they did is a crime. 2. They understand that they will be caught. In fact, they expect to be caught. 3. They expect to be found guilty, and to be sentenced to jail or even executed.
Then WHY THE xxxx do it? The feeling I get is that they experience some sort of inevitability about committing their crime – as if there is a total disconnect in their minds about NOT having to do it, and so not having to be sentenced to some form of punishment. As if they are passengers standing outside of themselves, observing themselves, not in control of this entity they are observing, wondering: 'Okay! Let’s see what he is going to do next!'
The quintessential feature of psychopaths is of course their total lack of empathy. Maybe that explains some of the above, maybe they lack even self-empathy. Maybe that is why Ted Bundy spoke of himself in the third person, as if the 'I' in Ted Bundy is something separate and independent of the organism Ted Bundy.
Anyway, we have ample local material to work with: The Inge Lotz murder. The Van Breda murders. The 'Welkom Grave Murders', for me the most fascinating of them all – the one I’d maybe try to use in some way. There is already a book about it, which I bought as a reference, but it was written by a newspaper and magazine crime reporter without much pretence towards the profound. With luck, maybe one can squeeze and Edgar Allen Poe/ Stephen King kind of thing out of it.
Maybe I should also say something about why this confirms my scepticism about IQ as a measure of true intelligence, which is that IQ measures a very mechanical kind of ability - an ability to do certain things efficiently with no real understanding of what is actually done. In short, I'm pretty sure that someday soon somebody will demonstrate a computer program that will max out any IQ test ever devised, and any IQ test still to be devised within the parameters of what is currently understood by IQ. And for me, real intelligence has to do with ability that cannot ever be performed by a computer program. (For instance, once upon a time somebody who could get the square root of PI in his head would be thought of as super intelligent. Since the calculator on my cellphone can do the same thing many times faster, it is now ludicrous to think of that ability as indicative of intelligence.) Psychopaths appear to me to be deficit in an similar ways to why a computer program will never exhibit real intelligence.
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Post by cjm on Jan 23, 2016 6:00:59 GMT
I wonder how many people actually get rich from writing books. Once the publishers etc are paid, often (I suspect) not much is left over. The SA market must be a particular tough one. Legal books are priced at astronomical prices because the SA market is so small. At least novels can be sold overseas. Looking at best sellers I note the Old Man and the Sea, published in 1952 coming in at 13 million copies. Nothing to sneeze at but not massive for an international seller over almost 70 years. Anyway, it can be done as with the Potter-books (millions and millions in the recent past). It also is very hard to get the first book published (my view). On crime and intelligence: One of my favourite models (by Eysenck) is that crime pays. Perhaps the psychopaths are clever enough to see it. Many people have psychopathic tendencies - most leaders, for example. So, I assume it is safe to speculate that not all psychopaths are killers. I seem to recall that they do mellow with age, so hormones play a part. There are also those who question the category (as with many mental diseases) - the definition is very general. It has been said that a psychopath is like an elephant: hard to describe but easy to recognise. There also is the problem of permanent incarceration when the classification kicks in. Retribution is supposed to limit the extent of punishment - in other words, once you have paid your debt to society you are free to go. In this case, once classified as a psychopath (as I tried to indicate, not a bullet proof classification), you are likely to spend your life behind bars.
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Post by Trog on Jan 23, 2016 9:47:14 GMT
I agree with the idea that the vast majority of crimes are committed by those who calculate that it will pay - the fundamental and probably correct assumption being that they will get away with it. They may even calculate that the punishment, if caught, is worth the payoff - e.g. having 30 million dollars stashed away somewhere, available after having spent 10 years in jail.
Evaluating the odds, deciding that the benefit is worth the risk - this is still rational behaviour.
But it is this which I perceive to be very different with psychopathic (serial) killers, who seem to be quite indifferent to the possibility of being captured i.e. "I do this. If I get away with it - great. If I don't get away with it - still great."
And it is when this now totally irrational behaviour is executed by putatively extremely intelligent people, who should be the epitome of rationality, that it becomes fascinating. For me, anyway. I'm even convinced that they, themselves, cannot adequately explain it. (Which begs the Kantian question - how can you punish someone for behaviour outside of their control? Particularly if the punishment will not have the slightest effect on changing that behaviour? (Nietzsche has no such qualms, of course - punishment is for revenge.))
In the case of Inge Lotz's killer, I'm quite sure that he fully expected to be held accountable for it, and that that did not deter him - he went ahead regardless. That he got away with it was just a bonus.
The Welkom duo as well. They just seemed to be totally oblivious to the world around them. (Although neither of them are actually psychopaths). I think that they would've been surprised and even somewhat alarmed if they were NOT caught.
Anyway - there is a world of nightmarish horror waiting to be explored and translated into a handsome profit by someone lucky and skilled enough to hit the right buttons.
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Post by cjm on Jan 25, 2016 4:29:56 GMT
... Evaluating the odds, deciding that the benefit is worth the risk - this is still rational behaviour. But it is this which I perceive to be very different with psychopathic (serial) killers, who seem to be quite indifferent to the possibility of being captured i.e. "I do this. If I get away with it - great. If I don't get away with it - still great." And it is when this now totally irrational behaviour is executed by putatively extremely intelligent people, who should be the epitome of rationality, that it becomes fascinating. For me, anyway. I'm even convinced that they, themselves, cannot adequately explain it. ... I am not altogether convinced that there is no rationality. Surely there is a pay-off of sorts - at least in motivation. Perhaps getting caught is part of the pay-off?
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Post by cjm on Feb 7, 2016 5:47:15 GMT
Perhaps some of the history of the concept of psychopathy in SA law could assist in crafting a tale. For example, having a psychopathy denier confronted by a set of personal circumstances changing his views and perhaps even discovering the psychopathy in him - or herself. Females are not immune to the condition (if it exists) - see the references below. The legal story starts with Dr JP Roux in the 70's. Although I could not find confirmation, I seem to recall that his doctorate in psychology was on psychopathy. His views were met in horror in some halls of academia (eg Prof J van Rooyen at UCT) as psychopathy as a concept was in doubt. If the condition did not exist it meant that people would be incarcerated (permanently) not for what they had done but for what they were. I guess this applies to the insane in general but what made this more difficult was that it was felt that the definition of a psycho was so general and vague that some pretty normal people could find themselves behind bars – for life. A definition was incorporated in due course into the Mental Health Act, 1973. “A persistent disorder or disability of the mind (whether or not subnormality of intelligence is present) which has existed in the patient from an age prior to that of eighteen years and which results in abnormally aggressive or seriously irresponsible conduct on the part of the patient.”The courts remained wary of the concept and in due course it was scrapped in the 90s and replaced with the concept of the dangerous offender who may also be locked up indefinitely (there are some safeguards for the not so dangerous). Whether this concept is an improvement, I am not sure. In the process much scorn was heaped on Roux for his “obsession” with the “outdated” concept - not to mention the money he threw at the *problem*. The elephant quote I mentioned in an earlier post ( an animal difficult to describe but easy to recognise), is by him. He was deputy commissioner of prisons and had pretty enlightened views otherwise. He eventually ended up as right- hand man in the office of the PW Botha presidency (I could find no reference on the internet). It seems that he then was bequeathed to De Klerk as director-general in the office of the President (probably the same position). From a most unscientific survey of the internet, it seems that the concept of the psychopath is on the rise again and that Dr Roux might well have the last laugh. ReferencesLegal position The more juicy (and exaggerated) view of Roux Roux and De KlerkSome academic explorations of psychopathy
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Post by Trog on Feb 8, 2016 14:46:47 GMT
Perhaps some of the history of the concept of psychopathy in SA law could assist in crafting a tale. For example, having a psychopathy denier confronted by a set of personal circumstances changing his views and perhaps even discovering the psychopathy in him - or herself. Females are not immune to the condition (if it exists) - see the references below. Thanks - this is interesting and useful. I'll probably have something more to discuss about it, later. I've been asking myself if a psychopath can understand art, since the key characteristic of psychopaths is supposedly their lack of empathy, and because I would imagine that empathy is pretty much a requirement for art appreciation. I came across Without Taste: Psychopaths and the Appreciation of Art. (It's a PDF on the www.academia.edu site). It turns out that the consensus is, in fact, that psychopaths ARE deficient in their ability to experience art, and that it is precisely their lack of empathy which is supposed to underlie this inability. The argument is actually much stronger than this, namely that it is the ability to empathise which is at the root of both aesthetic appreciation as well as moral reasoning. The psychopath, unable to empathise, can do neither. The authors of the article argues against this, on the grounds that not all aesthetic appreciation requires empathy, that the lack of empathy in itself is insufficient to explain the psychopath's moral insensitivity, and also that imaginative capacity equates to cognitive empathy, but a psychopath's imaginative capacity appears to be intact. Instead, they suggest that it is the lack of the ability to experience philosopher Edward Bullough's 'distance' (1912) which underlies the inability to experience both beauty and sympathy, and that moral reasoning is driven by sympathy, rather than by empathy. (Empathy is indicative of emotional connectedness, engagement, where sympathy often is not.) 'Distance' - "...the ability to disengage from one’s ordinary attitude to objects in the world as things to be used by me to serve some purpose. The capacity for distance is precisely the capacity to put aside one’s private concerns and desires in order to treat or study something for its own sake, or at least, not only for one’s own sake." I think that crucial to the concept of 'distance' is that it DOES NOT exclude caring - in fact, it embraces caring as an attitude towards things that may be of no possible use. The authors argue that this incapacity for 'distance' is undeniably present in all psychopaths:- They cannot see anything in terms of something not immediately useful to themselves, to gratify some desire or need - everything else simply does not exist. I am not myself entirely convinced, mainly of the rigor of their arguments. But I do not know enough to intelligently disagree, and their conclusion seems plausible to me. There are other aspects of psychopathy which seem relevant to me, as in the breakdown of rationality, and their inability to learn from punishment and through experience. I do suppose that it can be an interesting idea to explore though - that this single monolithic and seemingly innocuous disability can create monsters. (By the by, by my lights it seems that most serial killers are not psychopaths, that they emotionally engage with their victims quite closely - that that is actually the point of their behaviour. That makes them infinitely worse, in my opinion.)
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Post by cjm on Feb 9, 2016 5:03:58 GMT
... (By the by, by my lights it seems that most serial killers are not psychopaths, that they emotionally engage with their victims quite closely - that that is actually the point of their behaviour. That makes them infinitely worse, in my opinion.) So one has to be normal to be a serial killer. Normality then is a much greater madness than psychopathy. Not altogether a novel idea since there are those who argue that the stigma of madness is of recent (Western) origin (or that it does not exist at all). While I would happily grant everybody the right to be mad, I draw the line at doctors, flight controllers, pilots and the custodians of nuclear bombs and power stations. Lawyers and politicians cannot really do more damage whether mad or sane. The idea about art and psychos sheds much light ( I think) on the nature of art ( an embellished spin-off of basic emotions).
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