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Post by Trog on May 5, 2015 7:36:30 GMT
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Post by cjm on May 5, 2015 8:07:18 GMT
Ha, was our own Uys Krige not there as well?
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Post by Trog on May 5, 2015 9:24:04 GMT
Ha, was our own Uys Krige not there as well? He was in Spain, but it seems he left when the war started. It would've been interesting to see which side he chose, if he decided to stay. Maybe that is why he left - because he found all positions equally untenable. Maybe he just didn't want to get shot. He was very active in Europe and Africa during WWII, however. Maybe the most honest account of the Spanish war was left by Eric Arthur Blair, George Orwell, who was in fact an active, effective and committed participant. He was also almost ostracized by the manufacturers of public opinion at the time for reporting honestly on the atrocities committed by the communists. The ' intellectual' world then (which would include the Hemingway crowd) would tolerate no criticism of communism, and suppressed any such in true totalitarian style. TS Eliot also found himself in a position where he had to defend himself against the fashionable point of view. Orwell was a convinced socialist, of course, and remained so until he died. Although Socialism probably meant something somewhat different from what it does today, or even from what he thought it was supposed to mean.
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Post by cjm on May 5, 2015 16:46:59 GMT
Orwell was a convinced socialist, of course, and remained so until he died. Although Socialism probably meant something somewhat different from what it does today, or even from what he thought it was supposed to mean. ...and he wrote Animal Farm and 1984 - indictments of authoritarianism? Judging from Krige's poem "Lied van die Fascistiese bomwerpers" (Song of the Fascist bombers), I would say he was pro Republican.
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Post by Trog on May 6, 2015 7:55:06 GMT
O yes, I forgot about that. Still, being anti-Fascist doesn't mean that you are pro-Communist. Maybe that was Orwell's dilemma as well, that, at the time, for him the only visible alternative to authoritarianism (which he probably associated with classism) was socialism. I think people's perceptions about these things weren't all that well-developed at the time, and Orwell was no academic anyway. It was only after WWII that people such as Hannah Arendt and Karl Popper systemized the ideas and investigated the connection between idealist politics and totalitarianism. Before then, people such as Orwell were liable to be quite naive about it.
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Post by cjm on May 6, 2015 13:10:46 GMT
... I think people's perceptions about these things weren't all that well-developed at the time, and Orwell was no academic anyway. ... It must have been as difficult then to choose one's ideology (and friends) as it is today. On a simple level, take Malema. Often I agree with him but where is the line where you start voting for him. My main issue with him is that I don't trust him and fear what he might be capable of in terms of sheer violence. If one looks at the pre-WWII world, I can understand people supporting the Russians as against Hitler. What should have given pause for thought was the fact that at some stage Hitler and the Russians were bedfellows. Then somewhere in all this one has the Japanese and Italians. Without the benefit of hindsight, the choices were not straightforward. And what about the Afrikaner gut reaction against supporting the British against the Germans - particularly when the Jewish slaughter was still well hidden (or was it not?)
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Post by Trog on May 6, 2015 15:02:51 GMT
I'm of course hugely delighted at the massive embarrassment Malema is for the ANC. I think it is also extremely beneficial to the country that he does cause this embarrassment. I reckon it contributes substantially to undermining the ANC's powerbase, in many different ways, and could contribute substantially to its fragmentation, which appears to be more and more possible.
It also highlights some procedural flaws in the way parliament is conducted, and that must be addressed. It must not be possible for Malema (anyone) to disrupt parliament in the way he has, but it must also not be possible to conduct parliament in a way were such disruption becomes justifiable and indeed necessary.
So I am looking for measures to make this impossible, which would include measures that prohibit the majority party from manipulating the agenda and the nature of the debate.
(The speaker must not be able to say in effect: "Shut up! I don't want to hear what you are saying!" How on earth did it happen that this is even possible?)
The idea of voting for Malema would not in my wildest dreams occur to me as a possibility. The easy pointer is that the man is a fundamental lier. He is also fundamentally stupid. These are essential characteristics which he shares with Hitler, Stalin, Zedong and Pol Pot.
In terms of support for Germany: There was substantial support for Germany in the USA as well. And a not insignificant pro-Nazi faction even in the UK. (In fact, Churchill himself was not too pleased with Rooseveldt’s chumminess with Stalin – he anticipated the threat the USSR would eventually pose to Europe and he was of the opinion that the Germans should be allowed to finish them off.)
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Post by cjm on May 6, 2015 17:40:01 GMT
... It also highlights some procedural flaws in the way parliament is conducted, and that must be addressed. It must not be possible for Malema (anyone) to disrupt parliament in the way he has, but it must also not be possible to conduct parliament in a way were such disruption becomes justifiable and indeed necessary. So I am looking for measures to make this impossible, which would include measures that prohibit the majority party from manipulating the agenda and the nature of the debate. (The speaker must not be able to say in effect: "Shut up! I don't want to hear what you are saying!" How on earth did it happen that this is even possible?) ... Parliament used to be a place where anything could be said without fear of legal repercussions. That seems to be changing as the courts have now become the halls of debate. At the same time the side-show - which now is parliament - shows the limits of law when the dregs of society run the show. As alluring as a vote for everyone appears to be, it is a downwards spiral in terms of debate and behaviour. It now is fashionable to pour scorn on the idea of civilisation: There is an attempt to show that barbarians are civilised and that the civilised are barbarians, that there is no steady progression towards a higher state of human existence. I disagree and still maintain that a society which offers hot running water is in a higher orbit.
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Post by cjm on May 7, 2015 5:15:58 GMT
... It was only after WWII that people such as Hannah Arendt and Karl Popper systemized the ideas and investigated the connection between idealist politics and totalitarianism. Before then, people such as Orwell were liable to be quite naive about it. I am delightfully ignorant about Popper and Arendt (there must be something good ("delightfully"!) to be said for ignorance). Is Popper the guy who prescribed the recipe for proving scientific theories? I wonder then whether Milton Friedman had read Popper since he postulated a link between economic welfare and democracy.
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Post by cjm on May 9, 2015 20:56:29 GMT
... It was only after WWII that people such as Hannah Arendt and Karl Popper systemized the ideas and investigated the connection between idealist politics and totalitarianism. Before then, people such as Orwell were liable to be quite naive about it. I note that Popper's "Enemies of the Open Society" was written as long ago as 1945. Should be an interesting book. As far as his falsification theory goes: It may assist in providing accurate answers in certain (scientific) fields. There are however issues calling for answers which do not yield to that sort of (simplistic) answer. Issues in evolution and geology - and perhaps, even law. The answers may not be perfect here, but they are all we have (at present).
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